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Message started by Admin on Sep 27th, 2008 at 12:10am

Title: Teaching Color
Post by Admin on Sep 27th, 2008 at 12:10am
Let me introduce Deborah,

Deborah lives in East Williston and teaches in Plainview & Syosset, Long Island, N.Y

This is about a color wheel version I developed because she wanted it.

Don't forget to check "Check this if you wish to be notified of replies to this topic" below.

This is the starting page that I can add to at any time.

Title: Re: Teaching Color
Post by Admin on Sep 27th, 2008 at 12:13am
Wow!  Thank you for the 5" color wheel coming. What style painting do you do, in oil or acyrilic? Thank you again! Deborah Batterson.
Hi Don,  A "post script" to my last e-mail...Do you know why from childhood we are taught that red, yellow and blue are the primaries, when only upon deeper studies of color, we then learn that is in fact, wrong?That magenta, cyan and yellow are the primaries of pigment. My family owns a printing co. and I always thought that magenta, cyan and yellow as primaries  pertained to ink, only, and that for fine art and wall paint, meaning, all other types of pigments, that red yellow and blue were the primaries. (And of course, to further confuse... the primaries of light are yet again different!! Deborah.(Thank You!!)
Hi Deborah,

It all started with Newton in 1666. He called the primaries Red, Yellow and Blue because he couldn't see magenta and cyan in the prism or rainbow colors. The rest working on color theory just followed suit. Matching elements of color in crystals matched the pictorial oppositions I found in nature while making shadows from neutral darks. An elements crystal and it's oxide often are opposite colors, which helped prove my color theory. Don

Unfortunately, my computer was unable to find the page you sent me, I would very much like to see your art. I will try to link on to it again, a little later. Thank you so much for all of you help!! Deborah
Here is a list of my acrylic painting.
and oil painting.

I always paint from life, accurate color, accurate drawing. I have always said two things.. "If you don't like what you see, move", and, "Paint the bird before it flies way".

OH MY GOSH!!! Your work is so amazing!!... Your use of color is absolutely phonominal!!...Your work is so beautiful that it nearly brought me to tears!! Yet  your art made me smile!! A big silly smile amazed at the beauty of the art!!! Hard to pick my favorite, but,the "Tiger Claw Trees" is in the top running!! Don, Ive studied art history for years, and I find your work so breath taking,that you are my favorite artist!! My present situation will not enable me to purchase a painting, but do you sell prints? Maybe in the future I will be able to buy an original.  Thank you for all of the time you have taken with me! And you are an amazing artist!!! Deborah
Hi Deborah,
Thank you for the complements.
I print my own giclee prints on canvas. A 15x22 is $150.00 and a 22x30 is $250.00. Limited edition of 25 each size.
Aloha, Don

Hi Don, Do you have a paper cataloge, or is your cataloge on line only.? Im wondering if the 15x22 "Tiger Claw Trees" is still avail? Im unable to buy it now, I would be able to in a few months when classes start. Again, your art work is mesmorizing!! Deborah

I haven't printed it yet, but I plan to if I live long enough.
I think I have it but I'm not too keen on sellng originals any more. That size was selling for $2,000 in my gallery.
Hi Don,
I had the pleasure of being in touch with you summer of '07, while I was putting together an advanced  class for interior designers.You offered such exciting info, such as the primaries of light are the secondaries of pigment. Thank you. I use the "Real Color Wheel" that you sent me, in my teaching. Deborah

I have a question that I wonder if you know the answer to....
About 30 years ago, I learned somewhere about a word called "Xantic". which supposedly refers to a  color scheme of yellows & oranges.(Which of course is also known as analogous).

I was wondering if you ever heard of that?
Thank you very much for your time.
Sincerely, Deborah B

Hi Deborah, I remember you with pleasure, you have your own file on my system.
I never heard of "Xantic", I made this up this morning, maybe it will help you. If you like it I can spend more time on it and refine the colors.

Hi Don,
I absolutely love it. But for something else..
I teach that the "parent hues" of all browns come from either red, yellow or orange.
The colors you prepared gave me an idea... what would it cost me to have that concept put in the format you sent me?
Would that even be possible?
By the way, years ago,(late 1970s,) when I began my studies of interior design & color, I was taught about that word "Xantic".
After teaching this concept of it referring to a color scheme of yellows & oranges, for the past year & a half, I cannot find proof that it is a valid concept!
Now, while I know I'm a little nutty, I do know that I did not make up this word.
However if The One & Only Mr. Don Jusko is not aware of this, then I will remove it from the lesson.
Thank you so much for your time, Sincerely Deborah B
Hi Don,
I found the word "Xantic"!!! However it has an "H"....."Xanthic"!!!
It means "Tending toward a yellow color, or to one of those colors, green being excepted, in which yellow is a constituent, as scarlet,orange,etc."

If nothing else, at least I know I'm not crazy!( Well, maybe still!!!) But at least I found it.
Hi Deborah,

Well the one I made shows both yellow and red going to brown. I can't think of a better way to show it.

Yellow-green goes to brown also because of the fact that magenta has very long waves and it can bend around objects like the earth, magenta bending at sunset shows a red sky. Yellow-yellow-green and Yellow-green are as far as the magenta rays can reach.

Cyan, being the equal distance on the color wheel from magenta as yellow is also has some magenta influence in the color as it gets darker and it becomes dark ult. blue before black. Cyan picks up dark ult. blue like yellow picks up dark red (which is brown before black). Green however does not darken to brown, green is opposite magenta and stays pure. Green like magenta does not have any other color influencing when it gets dark.

This definition is the one I would go with.
a. yellow; yellowish. xanthochroid, n. & a. fair-haired and pale-skinned (person). xanthochroism, n. condition in which all skin pigments except yellow and orange disappear. xanthoma, n. skin disease causing yellow patches. xanthopsia, n. optical defect causing everything to seem yellow. xanthous, a. yellow- or red-haired; yellow-skinned.

Hi Don,
Thank you for all of your help!
Your information about yellow/yellow-green being as far as the magenta rays can reach, is a wonderfual way to explain it! That entire paragragh should be in art schools
around the country on a poster!  

Also, thank you for looking into Xanthic! It was helpful,to have that aspect of the definition.

Here is what I was thinking, if possible....where the exterior part of the triangle is, presently red, orange & brown, could that be red, orange & yellow pointing to its own various browns on the wheel section?  
The three center triangles would be, perhaps representing the darker versions of each brown?
What do you think? Deborah
The dark brown is for the yellow, orange and red. The approach to the brown is different for yellow, orange and red. My color wheel already shows these colors. The three main colors can each take 1/3 of the outer ring with five rings going to the brown center. The yellow goes to raw umber while red goes to burnt umber and orange is between the two. I guess that could also be shown as three sections in the center. This would make a nice poster along with the explanation. Another  color wheel of the same design could show how magenta effects cyan. Cyan, cobalt blue and ult. blue all go to a dark ult. blue. Don

Hi Don,
If the red, yellow and orange had a similar placement on the wheel, all 3 having the natural common aspect of being parent colors to brown, (rather than the yellow standing apart,) I believe it would help exemplify the concept.
Such as placing the 3 together in the very center triangles, or placing them as the outer triangles in the center of the wheel.
Is this possible?
I would love to see this, as well of your concept of how magenta effects cyan. They would make great laminated wheels! Possible?  Thank you again for your time and expertise!!! Deborah

Title: Re: Teaching Color
Post by Admin on Sep 27th, 2008 at 2:50am
It's not working too good,

I only put one brown in the center, it could be divided into a different color brown for each section. I think the wheel is odd because of the three 90 degree sections being yellow, orange and red.

Here it is with both browns sharing the one brown block, You can hardly tell the difference in RGB even tough the colors were made in CMYK.

Hi Don, its a beautiful wheel, however, I am under the impression that a different brown is produced from red,  yellow, and orange. Can a color wheel, or 3 separate wheels convey that concept?

Maybe this second style would be better. But as you can see there is not much difference between the browns, and as the color gets darker there is even less noticeable difference. I think the first one is best.

>  Hi Don,
> Yes, I agree, the darker the brown, the less noticable the differences are between them.
> But, I do love this wheel that you sent, and I wonder what it would look like completed... (Compementary browns?)...

They wouldn't be called complementary browns, they would be analogous browns. Don

> Is that even a possibility, because of the similar inherent light waves of the warm hues?

Wavelengths are measured in nanometers or angstrom units. What you meant to say is inherent light frequencies. What you should really have said is, the similar values. I agree they are hard to tell apart but I could do it. Don

I am going to put this whole letter in my color forum. Did I invite you to join it yet?


>  Perhaps the differences in the browns are slight, seeing only a small portion. How great, if at all, would the differences in the browns be if they were opposite each othe on the "Warm to Brown" wheel?

It's the Red-Orange-Yellow to Brown Real Color Wheel. warm would include from yellow-green to magenta. Magenta doesn't darken through brown, it goes straight to neutral dark. Don

Hi Don,
Would analogous browns be considered.... (Now I'm going to laugh) "Analogous complementaries", if they were set on a wheel and therefore, browns would be opposite each other? (As, for example the gray scale on a wheel... We can clearly see the grays opposite each other. "complementary grays".
No, I didnt know about your color forum, I would love to be a part of it! Thank you!

Hi Don,
It wasnt until I already sent that last e-mail that I saw the attachment of your completed "Red, orange, yellow, brown to Real color wheel"
Why are all of the browns so similar?
I told you they would be. The computer which works in Red, yellow and blue primaries doesn't make a big distinction between burnt umber and raw umber, told ya told told ya.
That why I like the original one I sent you. Din
Hi Don,
The master of color! Thanks for following through on my quest to understand,  so I could see you were correct, of course!
Thank you for all the time & effort.

Another question...Can you tell me why or how iron (red) makes it complementary color of green in nature?
Also, I read that on your wheel, the subtractive & additive colors are joined. Can you explain this?
(Now I'm off to teach my color class!)
Red and green are not complementary to start with. Opposites are 180 degrees apart, red and green are 120 degrees apart. The opposite of red is cyan, green's opposite is magenta.

Iron is one of several elements capable of making a rainbow of all colors in crystals.

Iron Fe 26 7.86 Malleable metallic, silver colored element. A full spectrum element.

QUARTZ, IRON, rose quartz is a light magenta. Citrine is from yellow to orange, centering dark, through brown. Iron also gives black [deep-red] to onyx, and red and orange in fire agate.

SPHALERITE, IRON, Idiochromatic colors from, yellow, tan, brown, black, orange and red. High dispersion showing the spectrum like a diamond.

SIDERITE, IRON, yellow-green to brown, centering colors in different crystals, transparent or translucent. This crystal is the cool side of the Yellow scale to neutral dark.
CORUNDUM, IRON, makes crystals in blue, cyan, dark-green, yellow, orange, red and magenta. All transparent, all brittle, and all expensive as crushed pigments. Iron makes all three primary colors in this crystal Corundum, [A1203], plus making the secondary colors Red, Ult. Blue and Green. The Red and Green have added Chromium.

Here is a web page of colored elements.

> Also, I read that on your wheel, the subtractive & additive colors are joined. Can you explain this?

The primary colors of light are equally spaced between the primaries of pigment. Both systems mesh and are joined perfectly.

I hope you have all your complements correct. Don't go teaching the red-yellow-blue colorwheel and mess everything up!
Just as a test, on a correct 12 color wheel, what are the complement colors? In other words, which colors mix to a neutral dark? Don
Hi Don,
Please go easy on me, I'm looking at your tiny wheel! (I need to get 2 more of your large wheels. One is at the school,
I need one for home and the new school location.Send me your address, and I'll send you a check, I need them A.S.A.P,
Please tell me cost...) but in the meantime, here are my answers... Did I understand correctly? Deborah

1 & 19 complementary
7 & 26         "
10 & 29       "
13 & 32       "
16 & 35       "
22 & 4
Yes, you understood the question but didn't match up the pigment color and numbers from the back.
Would you rather have the 5" ($10), 8" ($20), 11 ($30)", or 24" ($75) canvas ($50) paper (which I have ready to print but haven't yet.) Soon I should get the paper needed delivered so I can roll either the canvas or paper in a tube and mail, all the way up to 32" for schools. Then I'm going to get pull down displays so they can be rolled up and left it the classroom. As a teacher take 20% off what ever you want.

1 & 19 complementary,   Yes, That would be Yellow and blue, using the dark yellow which is brown to mix with ult. blue to make neutral dark.
7 & 26 complementary,   Red (cad red) and cyan (Thalo Blue)
10 & 29 complementary,  No, that would be 10 Scarler (no tube color made yet) and 28 turquoise blue-green.
13 & 32 complementary,  No, it would be 13 & 31. 13 being magenta (quinacradone magenta PR122)and 31 being green (Thalo green yellow side)
16 & 35 complementary,  Yes, that would be Purple and Yellow-green (yellow-green as different from Yellow-yellow-green and yellow-yellow-yellow-green)
22 & 4 complementary, Yes, Cobalt blue and orange, because both pigments are opaque and orange has opaque yellow in it, the neutral is dark gray, not black.

I see you are having trouble reading across the wheel. Perhaps I should put the complement numbers on the front of the wheel, or make the color number the opposite color.

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