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Tartrazine transparent yellow acrylics (Read 1468 times)
Reply #21 - May 18th, 2013 at 5:30am

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I started my first acrylic painting today with PY100 tartrazine, PR122&BV10 opera, PB15 cyan. They mixed colors very well but there is an insurmountable problem.
I described the problem below in red.
I've had better days. DonJ
 
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Reply #20 - Mar 14th, 2013 at 9:02am

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I made the first tubed acrylic Opera paint today, 3-13-13, the tests worked so I don't expect any problems. It didn't bleed or have any pickup from it when it dried. I can't wait to do my first three primary full color painting with it. No other pigment makes brighter blues or reds. Adding Thalo Green makes a dark neutral. Thalo blue can't be improved on, it's perfect as it is.
I'll photograph the tube after I label it.
Here are links to the tests and two Opera water color paintings with tips.
http://www.realcolorwheel.com/opera.htm
and
http://www.realcolorwheel.com/operamagentasilk-greencarnations-wc11x15.htm

 
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Reply #19 - Mar 12th, 2013 at 6:30pm

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I made a tube of Tartrazinez w/ a red/brown transparent to match PY150 to go with my PY100 Tartz that does the job of PY153.
The pigment I described to Spectra Colors to make the PY150 has too much red in it, but it does make a cool yellow transparent glaze. The PY100 test on a gessoed palette and primed canvas had no pick-up after it was dry. The Opera pigment dissolved in Ammonia first made a perfect acrylic pigment. I must make a tube of it. Dissolving the Opera pigment in alcohol disolved the darker BV10 compound only, I couldn't use it.

This is sad, the transparent tartrazine yellow I put into the tubes bled through the acrylic medium when I painted the first day of a painting today, 5-17-13. I know I can lock it in with a urethane final finish but it won't stand up to nightly washing the painting to remove the day's dirt accumulation. That's all she wrote, acrylic tartrazine for me lost a major battle in the paint wars. It's still a big winner as a water color though.


I'm going to finish the painting, it's not on line yet but will be when I'm done with it.
http://www.realcolorwheel.com/Jacaranda2013MakawaoSchoolCrossing.htg
 
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Reply #18 - Mar 11th, 2013 at 1:08pm

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VladimirM wrote on Mar 4th, 2013 at 11:23pm:
I was looking earlier at Spectra Colors. Can you please confirm if this is the right one?

http://spectracolors.com/

I had to register to view their product codes, but even then I can't tell which one I should use. There are several product categories, and for each category they have a PDF file with the product codes. There are also several "Tartrazine Yellow" products. I assumed it's in powder form, so I looked at the FD & C list. They seem to be the only ones listed as powders. There is a "Yellow 5" within this category that looked like it's the right one, but it says it's only 20% soluble in water, so it's probably not that one.

Could you tell me the product code you are using?

Thanks,
Vlad


Hi Vlad, I didn't see this post, the product number for the Tartrazine yellow orange-side is Acid Yellow 23, it is a "Yellow 5". There other numbers on the label but since I got the powder in 2006 they are worn thin, C.A.S #1934-23-0.
Yellow 1.AC.0023H0 SPECTRACID TARTRAZINE H LIQ.
My pigment seemed to 100% soluble in water. Acid Yellow 23 is available in both liquid and powder, I have them both. I didn't get the liquid (in water) until 2009, C.A.S #1934-21-0. That's PY100 and it also matches PY153.

To use the dry pigment in my plotter I used half water and half ethylene glycol as the starting mixture and diluted it by volume, 1 part dry tartrazine to 29 parts liquid. To make ink jet ink go to this page.
http://www.realcolorwheel.com/rcwplotter.htm
Making water colors are on this page,
http://www.realcolorwheel.com/RCWmakingPRIMARYwatercolor.htm

I also got the SPECTRA Direct Yellow 107 liquid (it's opaque), and the SPECTRA Direct Yellow 86, C.A.S. Mixture, (brown to yellow dual-tone, transparent) SPECTRA I.J. YELLOW BRJ Liquid. That's equal to a PY150, a cooler transparent yellow Brown/Side. Spectra Colors doesn't use Pigment Names and Numbers. Spectra Direct Yellow 86 is a bit too much on the red side of brown, it's not brown enough but it still makes a cool transparent yellow and that's important. Spectra should be contacted to adjust the pigment.
Mary Valentine
Manager, FDA Colorants       
Tel:  618 340 3040         
Fax:  618 295 3070
Email: MaryValentine@SpectraColors.com   
Customer Service:  800-527-8588
 
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Reply #17 - Mar 7th, 2013 at 10:09pm

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3-7-13, Results of yesterday's tests.
Tartrazine on plate, w/o poly = some pick-up.
With Poly, 1% pick-up

Golden Gesso on plate, tartz only = no bleeding pick-up
Golden Gesso on plate, tartz + poly = no bleeding pick-up

Ammonia dissolved tartz mixed with white acrylic = looked like yellow colored paint while it was wet and soft.  The paint looked orange when dry with a lot of pick-up, the pigment had floated. When it was surface wetted again with water it returned to yellow, only while it was wet.

Without the ammonia and mixed with white acrylic it did not bleed (.5) but was the color of gamboge tint, not cad yellow.
I didn't test it with alcohol.

Tartrazine on plotter canvas or paper did not bleed with or w/o a polyurethane coating = no bleed, no pick-up.

Opera dry pigment and alcohol dissolved the B10, so it could be separated to a darker magenta color closer to PR122.

Using ammonia broke down the pigment where water by itself would not. It made a fine tubed transparent warm magenta pigment, leaning to the PV19 side.

Both Tartrazine and Opera as colors painted as acrylics well, I could paint a full color picture by using them and PB15 cyan, but.. both new colors would not stand up to nightly washing before painting the next day. This is a problem I didn't foresee and a problem I can live without.


 
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Reply #16 - Mar 6th, 2013 at 8:42pm

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TARTRAZINE ACRYLIC
3-5-13 Start 5Pm, Tartrazine acrylic on canvas = 0 pickup after 16 hours drying.
Tartrazine acrylic on a plate = 2% pickup after 16 hrs of drying. End 3-6-13, 9Am.
Cover 1/2 with polyurethane on 3-6-13, plate = lightened back to original cad yellow hue.
Cover 1/2 with polyurethane on 3-6-13, primed canvas = no color change.
OPERA ACRYLIC
Dissolved Opera in ammonia to make it transparent, added acrylic heavy gel, painted perfectly, dry with no pickup from dried acrylic on plate. 3-5-13.
Today, 10Am, 3-6-13, Painted Golden's Acrylic Gesso on the plate to test the Tartz yellow acrylic.

The tests I made on canvas were on plotter coated canvas, that's absorbent like paper. Today I started a full color painting on an acrylic gessoed board and got the shock of my life, both Opera and Tartrazine acrylic paints could be partly washed off. Yes they could be locked in with urethane as the final finish but that doesn't help when your just cleaning the days dirt off.
 
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Reply #15 - Mar 6th, 2013 at 3:14pm

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Thank you for the update and your help. I am glad that now I have a yellow mixture won't bleed. Also it sounds like the poly does a really good job at locking everything in.
 
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Reply #14 - Mar 6th, 2013 at 3:33am

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I had never made an acrylic from that Opera pigment I have. I just test made one of Opera which is an opaque bright tint which can replace MagPR122 (Opera ShinHan WC) except for the darker concentrations of PR122.

If you don't need a dark magenta but still want dark neutral triads and better brighter blue's and red's, Opera is your color. I did make it transparent Opera with ammonia (it doesn't dissolve in water or alcohol). So that means I can dissolve it in ammonia and add the acrylic gel and I have a primary triad in acrylics that will paint full color paintings with purer colors. Just add the Tartrazine transparent yellow PY100 and PB15 cyan (which only dissolved in alcohol). 

The egg tests I did with Tartz didn't work. It smeared, bled through the egg and acrylic media.
Only the layer of poly held it in.

I'm going to make the successful test of tartz yellow being covered with poly after 2 hours of drying again, and after 24 hours with a new batch of acrylic on a plate.

It might have been your gessoed canvas that soaked in the extra yellow pigment because I had a hard surface palette with gesso on it when it soaked through the medium. I'll test it on canvas too.

Yesterday's test of letting the poly dry on the Tartz acrylic 24 hours didn't smear or bleed.
Today's test of making an acrylic Opera paint worked perfectly, no smear or bleed.
The cyan PB15 acrylic paint is also perfect.
 

Day1Tartz.jpg (381 KB | )
Day1Tartz.jpg
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Reply #13 - Mar 5th, 2013 at 5:32am

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Admin wrote on Mar 5th, 2013 at 3:02am:
I just finished my test, 4:12Pm, Applied the pigment 12Pm, dry to the touch, applied polyurethane, it smeared with yellow. If that same test isn't smear-less by tomorrow... I should have just painted half with poly and tested the other half tomorrow.


My guess is it will smear. This is what happened to me even after a third clear isolation coat (although not polyurethane, just glazing medium). I've basically ended up washing the painting with soap and water, got rid of all the yellow smears, and re-painted those areas with a different paint.

Acrylics can take a lot of punishment like this and it's part of the reason I like them. According to Golden, washing the painting between the layers may actually improve adhesion, especially when using slow drying acrylics. The reason is that during drying, surfactants used during the manufacturing process raise to the top of the acrylic film and make it less adherent. It takes about a month of drying for this to happen.
 
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Reply #12 - Mar 5th, 2013 at 5:17am

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I've just read your replies, thank you. So it smeared for you, too? That's not good, although I am glad I'm not the "odd one" and you were able to replicate the problem.

I got a mixture that doesn't bleed. Both powder content and medium viscosity (fluid or gel) seem to have an impact on bleeding. The "recipe" for me was to use less powder and a thicker medium.

I took a picture of the canvas I tested on, my comments are on the picture itself. It's just a regular factory gessoed cotton canvas from W&N. I've attached a low resolution version here, but if you want to see the high resolution, I can email it to you. The colour is not necessarily accurate, I took the picture with my phone camera.

 
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Reply #11 - Mar 5th, 2013 at 3:45am

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I found a white plate. Acrylic didn't mix as well in to the egg white. It mixed very well into the yolk. After the tests I may work on the % of each. 5:44Pm, One pure yolk, one pure egg white, one 50/50 of each, one with 50:50 dye and white tubed acrylic.
 
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Reply #10 - Mar 5th, 2013 at 3:02am

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VladimirM wrote on Mar 4th, 2013 at 10:38pm:
Maybe my problem is that I've mixed too much tartrazine powder into the medium. If the acrylic medium, when drying, "squeezes out" the dye, and also if the support is relatively non-absorbent, then the excess dye would have nowhere to go than lift up to the surface.
I just finished my test, 4:12Pm, Applied the pigment 12Pm, dry to the touch, applied polyurethane, it smeared with yellow. If that same test isn't smear-less by tomorrow... I should have just painted half with poly and tested the other half tomorrow.
Quote:
It does say on the box "dye content more or equal to 85%". Perhaps this can explain the price, aside from the fact that it's "pharmacology grade", whatever that means (I am guessing purity, consistency between batches, etc.). As a bit of trivia, they also have the "analytical grade", around the same price for 25mg. Yes, milligrams. It could also be that the less pricey one has a lower dye content, and that's why you don't see any bleeding with yours.
I first I found this pigment in use when I searched India about transparent yellow, it used as a food dye by a company Ajaunta (or something like that, they are big and India is big in pigments). Spectra Colors in NJ makes it and sent me a sample. What you have is the food grade, we use it here in the US as a plastic coloring dye and McCormick's food coloring.
Quote:
I will mix to get a cad yellow light hue, and test. If I don't get the bleeding with a lighter hue, then perhaps my theory is not that far off.
You are right on Vlad, and if the problem persists after waiting for the poly to dry tomorrow I will have to find a way to make the pigment work. The chemical formula is on that link you gave me and I know a chemistry teacher. Perhaps just adding some egg to the acrylic media would lock it tight. I'll try it now. Quote:
If you have some time, would you be interested to test on a non-absorbent surface, such as a plate? With other acrylic colors, once the acrylic film is dry, you can peel it off and there is no bleeding on either side of the film (let's call them "air side" and "plate side"). Liquitex, for example, calls these dried paint films "acrylic skins". I am curious to see, once you peel the dried film off the plate, will the plate side show any bleeding when swiped with a wet rag or paper towel?  This I think would be important to know from a conservation perspective - if the tartrazine sits loose between the layers of paint, how does it affect the adhesion between the layers?
Ok, I'll do all the tests on a plate. I don't think the dye will alter the adhesion. I don't think egg will effect it either, except make it stronger, maybe. I'm curious about a skin leaving some color behind. Quote:
It is possible that with a gessoed surface, being slightly porous, the tartrazine stains the gesso underneath, and the acrylic coat is just a barrier. When used in a printer, I suspect it's the same, the tartrazine dye will stain the support.
Absolutely, again I'm thinking egg. 
Quote:
I'll let you know how my less concentrated mixture turns out.
Thanks for working with me on this.
Vlad
My pleasure Vlad, I'm happy to find someone that cares.
 
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Reply #9 - Mar 4th, 2013 at 11:23pm

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I was looking earlier at Spectra Colors. Can you please confirm if this is the right one?

http://spectracolors.com/

I had to register to view their product codes, but even then I can't tell which one I should use. There are several product categories, and for each category they have a PDF file with the product codes. There are also several "Tartrazine Yellow" products. I assumed it's in powder form, so I looked at the FD & C list. They seem to be the only ones listed as powders. There is a "Yellow 5" within this category that looked like it's the right one, but it says it's only 20% soluble in water, so it's probably not that one.

Could you tell me the product code you are using?

Thanks,
Vlad
 
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Reply #8 - Mar 4th, 2013 at 10:43pm

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Just an update regarding the price - it's $43 on the US site, $36 on the Canada site. I'm from Canada so I paid the Canadian price. Still, far from cheap, but if it works it will last me a very long time.
 
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Reply #7 - Mar 4th, 2013 at 10:38pm

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Hello,

Maybe my problem is that I've mixed too much tartrazine powder into the medium. If the acrylic medium, when drying, "squeezes out" the dye, and also if the support is relatively non-absorbent, then the excess dye would have nowhere to go than lift up to the surface.

It does say on the box "dye content more or equal to 85%". Perhaps this can explain the price, aside from the fact that it's "pharmacology grade", whatever that means (I am guessing purity, consistency between batches, etc.). As a bit of trivia, they also have the "analytical grade", around the same price for 25mg. Yes, milligrams. It could also be that the less pricey one has a lower dye content, and that's why you don't see any bleeding with yours.

I will mix to get a cad yellow light hue, and test. If I don't get the bleeding with a lighter hue, then perhaps my theory is not that far off.

If you have some time, would you be interested to test on a non-absorbent surface, such as a plate? With other acrylic colors, once the acrylic film is dry, you can peel it off and there is no bleeding on either side of the film (let's call them "air side" and "plate side").  Liquitex, for example, calls these dried paint films "acrylic skins". I am curious to see, once you peel the dried film off the plate, will the plate side show any bleeding when swiped with a wet rag or paper towel?  This I think would be important to know from a conservation perspective - if the tartrazine sits loose between the layers of paint, how does it affect the adhesion between the layers?

It is possible that with a gessoed surface, being slightly porous, the tartrazine stains the gesso underneath, and the acrylic coat is just a barrier. When used in a printer, I suspect it's the same, the tartrazine dye will stain the support.

I'll let you know how my less concentrated mixture turns out.

Thanks for working with me on this.

Vlad
 
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Reply #6 - Mar 4th, 2013 at 8:40pm

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Hi Vlad,
The Opera was the same color also but in oil paint it bled. I can't use it. I'm going to try acrylic paint and first dissolve the Opera pigment in ammonia, then put into acrylic medium.

I really scrubbed the tartrazine on gesso today and got maybe 1%. I know the polyurethane will lock in even that.

Did you mix in enough to make a cad yellow light? That's the color I found best as the tubed color for a mass tone and a glaze. I didn't try the test on darker mixes because I don't want it any darker.

I went to your link, $43 for 100 g is a lot of money. I wonder who their supplier is? Spectra Color is a manufacture.

I used a gel mix that equaled a "heavy bodied" tube paint.
Today I'll make another test on gesso and coat it with polyurethane from my hardware store. I expect it to seal 100%.

Using the ink I made with it in my plotter I had no pick-up, the same with the test sample on plain paper.
 
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Reply #5 - Mar 4th, 2013 at 5:19pm

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Hello Don,

Thank you for such a quick reply. I got my tartrazine through a pharmacology lab from Sigma-Aldrich. Here is the link:

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/sigma/t0388?lang=en&region=CA

It seems to have all the properties you mention. On black it's transparent. In higher concentrations it's orange. When thinned it's a very bright yellow, toward the yellow-orange and not toward yellow-green like the hansa yellow light for example. When mixed with magenta it gives an intense red.

I can order from the supplier you are using and try, however I am wondering what can be different. To me, it seems logical that if it's the same molecule, it would behave the same way, regardless of the supplier.

What kind of acrylic medium have you used for mixing? This is the other variable, although I agree it seems less likely to have an impact.

Thanks,
Vlad
 
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Reply #4 - Mar 4th, 2013 at 1:05am

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I just realized you may not get a notice when I added a comment to a previous post, so I'm posting this in as new post.

I just checked the additional layer of Tartrazine transparent yellow acrylic I put on an hour ago and it did not bleed or remove any color. It must be the brand of tartrazine that you bought, who did you buy it from?
 
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Reply #3 - Mar 3rd, 2013 at 9:51pm

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Hello,
Thank you for the reply. I have seen the page - that's why I wanted to give it a try. The problem is that I am able to wipe the yellow off once the paint is dry. I've posted a more detailed description in a different section - I didn't see that you had already started the discussion here.
My post is here:
http://realcolorwheel.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1362346829
Thank you,
Vlad

(Hi Vlad, I moved your (this) post to the Acrylic Discussion topic. Don)



 
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Reply #2 - Mar 3rd, 2013 at 10:52pm

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I just tried wiping off some Tartrazine yellow off this original color test page. Nothing moved. I just put some of my tubed Transparent yellow on my gessoed palette. It moved. Maybe it wasn't totally dry yet. I put another layer on just now.

I did have a bleeding with some magenta Opera I think I bought from Blick. I was trying to make a tubed WC pigment. It bleed.
Shinhan Water Color from Korea, PR122 and BV10 does not bleed but I haven't been able to buy any dry pigment from them.
http://www.realcolorwheel.com/opera.htm

Did you buy your Tartrazine from Spectra Colors like I did?
My homemade WC Tartrazine doesn't move either.

I just checked the additional layer of Tartrazine acrylic I put on an hour ago and it did not bleed or remove any color. It must be the brand of tartrazine that you bought, who did you buy it from?
 
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Reply #1 - Mar 3rd, 2013 at 9:40pm

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Hello,

I am trying to make some transparent yellow paint by mixing tartrazine powder into a clear acrylic medium. The medium I used is Liquitex glazing medium. I've used two methods so far. One method was to mix the powder right into the medium. The second was to dissolve the powder into a small quantity of water first, and then add the medium.

The problem is that the dye doesn't stay in the medium once the paint dries. If I go over the paint film with a damp rag, I can wipe the yellow. If I insist, I can pretty much wash all of it. It doesn't matter how long I leave the paint to dry. The medium stays on the support just fine, only the yellow dye goes away. It's as if the yellow raises to the surface of the acrylic film when it dries.

I've also tried to paint over the dried yellow film a few coats of clear medium, hoping that the ear medium will act as a barrier, but without success. Even after three clear coats of medium, I can still wipe yellow from the painted area.

I am looking for suggestions.

Thank you,
Vlad
 
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Mar 3rd, 2013 at 9:13pm

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I got this email today 3-3-13.
   Hello, my name is VladimirM and I would like to register on your forum.
   I have a question related to a problem I am having when mixing tartrazine powder into acrylic medium. In what area should I post it?
Thank you,
Vlad

Thanks for the email Vlad. Have you seen this page?
http://www.realcolorwheel.com/indianyellowtobrownPY153.htm


 
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