This is about using a pre-made store bought ammonia water and comparing it to using dry ammonium carbonate to make cera colla, more accurately called, sapone di cera.
Hi Don,
G
I am in Italy. A good supplier mail-order is Kremer Pigmente, and indeed I got the bleached wax from them (plus pigments and other things, they've got wonderful stuff). By the way, did you use bleached or normal beeswax?
D
I used normal beeswax.
> It's all in the amount of water and ammonia, the ratio would be 10% ammonia into 1 part water = 100% (equals the store bought Industrial strength ammonia. Normal ammonia for washing windows and stuff has soap in it) plus another 100% water and 100% wax.
> Mine made a silky smooth like vanilla pudding storing thickness emulsion. I thin it with ammonia water to paint with it.
D
> You are probably right. Cera Colla means glue wax but they are both emulsions. What would be the translation for wax soap?
> Did the glue wax you made separate at all, ever?
G
Since soap is sapone (nowadays, I have no idea at the time of Giotto) it would be "sapone di cera" o "cera sapone" (but in modern italian we do not specify a material the latter way). Perhaps an even more modern term would be "cera saponificata" (saponified wax).
G
The emulsion did indeed separate at one point: Initially I took it too soon away from the stove and into a cold water vessel, then, unhappy with the milky consistency, I reheated it, causing it to effervesce while mixing it. Eventually it separated into a thicker mass on top of a liquid. [This also happens when making soap, as the soap salt separates from the lye (and glycerin).] I kept on mixing and the whole mass became a vaseline like thick fluid.
I did some researching and think in the case of wax soap it is not glycerin that separates, but principally triacontanol, an alcohol that is also a growth stimulant for plants.
I will try a batch without making the mistake I did and see if it turnes out any different.
G
Also, you mention the term wax-soap at one point, this is indeed the name Doerner gives to it "wax soap" and I think is the appropriate one. I have made several batches of olive oil+lye soap, and the transition from the milky liquid to the final product was similar, if faster, to what I get when making hot process soap. The liquid suddenly thickens and turns to something like vaseline.
D
Yes, it's important to keep stirring because it does happen quickly. And you keep stirring until it is cool.
G
Before making a new batch of sapone di cera I made a different experiment, forgive me if I take your time reporting this!
I prepared, or better attempt to prepare, some shellac ink. An ink recipe lists as a base 18 parts water (I think too little with my alcali, I had to add another 8 parts as it turned to a jelly when cool), 2 parts shellac, 1 part borax. Since I haven't got borax in the house, I decided to use another alcali. Guess what: ammonium carbonate...
Mixed in water and cooked in a double boiler. Even more evidently than with wax, at one point the shellac forms a blob (like jellyfish) that floats over the liquid. Keep on stirring at boiling point and it finally dissolves. As I said I had to add an extra 8 parts of water and reheat as it had cooled down to a jelly similar to animal glue. When reheated, I added a pinch of ammonium carbonate, and a gelatinous mass formed again, that went away again by cooking and stirring.
I added vine-black and indigo, half a teaspoon each (over a total of 150ml water, before evaporation) and a teaspoon of boneblack (imitation ivory black from Kremer) 'cause it was not black enough for me.. As it is it does not flow readily from a nib, too much surface tension, perhaps it is more an ink for brush application. It is unsurprisingly very waterproof and a bit too shiny in thick layers.
Giuliano
On 25 Jun 2007, at 07:59, Don Jusko wrote:
D
I also had to toss my first mistake away because the water was too cool.
G
I think that is the point. In a double boiler I cannot get the wax + water + ammonium carbonate mix hot enough. Also, I have far too much water. I will try next by melting the wax with very little water and put the ammonium in boiling, or just, water (the solution will bring the temperature down anyway) and then mix it to the wax like you did.
Did you have any problems given the cream colour of the yellow wax? I am making some with yellow wax now (same problem as before, of course) and it comes out like a nice cream, I would like to eat it.
I had a look at your page paint1881.htm and I think it's very good!
http://www.realcolorwheel.com/paint1881.htmThanks
Giuliano
D
Hi Giuliano,
I have updated my web page to include all of your terms for wax soap.
And tried to work out the percentages to include all three components as a ratio.
It's all in the amount of water and ammonia, the ratio would be 1:1:1/20.. 10% ammonia in 1 part of water (equals the store bought Industrial strength ammonia. Normal ammonia for washing windows and stuff has soap in it) plus another 1 part water. That's 2 parts water, but one of the parts has 10% ammonium hydroxide in it.
That would be about 5% ammonium hydroxide if you doubled the water. Ammonia is 5% or 1/20 or 5/100 or 1.125. Water 200 parts, wax 200 parts, ammonia 5 parts or, 100:100:2.5
On my web page I say,
Ammonium carbonate or ammonium hydroxide both will make Cera Colla. I used a common 'Industrial Specification' 10% ammonium hydroxide as ammonia water found at Ace Hardware and diluted it 1:1 with more water. Heat it to where it is just starting to boil before you pour it into the melted wax.
The 5% ammonia in the water solution and wax should be mixed 1:1. Never boil the wax. Don't stop stirring until it's cool.
G
Regarding ammonia concentration, ammonium carbonate relative content in ammonia is 0.375 (18 is the ammonium weight, of which there are two in the molecule which weights 96: 36/96 = 0.375). So, in my case my 1:10 ammonium carbonate:water is 0.375:10 ammonia:water that is just under 4%. That is not far from your concentration of 5%. But the point is not this, after all the ammonia (and the carbonate ion in my case) will eventually evaporate, the point is the wax/water ratio (and the consistent temperature).
I decided to use a (water:wax) ratio more similar to yours, as I kept on having to cook my mixture longer to get a creamy consistency (to evaporate the excess of water). So tonight I did 1.5 parts of water : 1 part of wax (in volume, but wax density is very near to 1, so that's also the ratio by weight). For 90ml of distilled water (and about 60g of wax) I measured two teaspoonfull of ammonium carbonate (I did not have the scale to measure it).
1) melted the wax in very little (say 10ml) of the total distilled water in a narrow glass jug that is the internal part of my double boiler.
2) when the wax melted (the water in the external pan was boiling) I also brought the remaining distilled water (say 80ml) to the boil in a separate pan.
3) heated the glass vessel containing the ammonium carbonate (by immersion in boiling water)
4) mixed a little of the boiling distilled water of step 2 with the ammonium carbonate to help pouring it from its container
5) put the hot distilled water and the ammonium carbonate in the molten wax in the double boiler
6) stir
As you can see I wanted to make sure that the mixture would not go appreciably below water boiling point. The mixture developed effervescence as expected, during which I kept on stirring with a wooden spoon. This lasted a few minutes. I kept on stirring in the double boiler until I was happy that the was no more effervescence, perhaps three or four minutes.
Took out the jug of the double boiler and kept stirring, no need to put in cold water. In at most three minutes it cooled down enough to become much more thick.
I am pretty sure that with this 1.5:1 or similar water:wax ratio you will never get a result that will flow once cooled down (below 50 centigrades). But the result, however thick (very similar to my first experiment) is very pleasant, very uniform and creamy.
Having reduced the amount of water I did not experience any separation at any stage and the whole process took a fraction of the time it took with about 10 times more water. I think indeed Doerner (and others) recipes have far too much water (or do not stress enough the importance of high temperature).
This time I used bleached was as I know it gives a nice cold white.
D
> You said,
> I used a 10:2:1 solution: 10 parts of water, 2 parts of wax and 1 part of ammonium carbonate.
G
so now I say: use 3:2:1 water:wax:ammonium carbonate (where the latter can be probably less) and make sure everything is boiling hot! Presumably more water may be used to get a more flowing result, but this seems unessential as one can dilute with a little more water when painting (as you said).
Giuliano
D
Well you did it, nice going. I like your ratio using ammonium carbonate, I believe it's the same as my 1:1 ratio using store bought 10% ammonia water.
For the last week I have been washing linseed oil, I found the sludge I removed developed crystals. Pure linseed oil put on my windshield didn't last 30 days before crystallizing, it has no sticking power. I believe the water soluble crystals should be removed from the oil.
Don
Here's the web page with photos of the process I used.
http://www.realcolorwheel.com/ceracolla.htm
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